Unedited audio of the Mr Ghafoor filmed interview Interview by: Atiha Chaudry

Interview description by: Harriet Morgan-Shami

Track 1:

Atiha and Mr. Ghafoor introduce themselves and explain their family connection to the Partition. They both confirm that Mr Ghafoor and Atiha’s mother are cousins and that they made the Partition journey to a refugee camp together. [00:55] Atiha asks her uncle about life before the Partition and he explains that his family were middle class farmers living in Alola, Jalandhar district. He recalls that he was living with his grandfather because his own father was in Kenya during this time. He confirms that he was born in 1932 which makes him a little older than Atiha’s mother. [01:39]

Track 2:

Atiha and Mr. Ghafoor discuss the different ages between him and her mother. Mr Ghafoor recalls that his mother died in 1937 and that he has no siblings so he was living alone with his grandfather at the time of the Partition. He recalls how his father returned to India when his mother died and wanted to take him back to Kenya with him. His grandfather would not let him go back with his father due to concerns over who would take care of him with his father refusing to remarry. [01:24] Atiha asks her uncle to explain how he and her mother were related. Mr Ghafoor explains that he and Atiha’s mother lived in the same village. He recalls Atiha’s mother visiting his house and he visiting hers. [02:03] Atiha asks Mr. Ghafoor when he first became aware that the Partition was happening. He recalls finding out in May/June that there was going to be a partition but they were not told exactly where the new borders would be. He recalls that the announcement was made in July that his village was to be in the new India. He remembers that violence broke out between friends stating that people probably didn’t want to do it but that the community pressure was so great. [03:04] Atiha asks if Mr. Ghafoor can remember witnessing any of the fighting. He recalls that his own village was attacked and that two people were killed and several people injured. He remembers that at the end of July his family decided that it was no longer safe to remain in the village and that they would have to travel to Pakistan. [03:53] Mr Ghafoor remembers that first they walked, along with the rest of the village to Nakodar camp 2 ½ miles away from his village. He recalls that they took hardly anything with them but that they had some cash in the house which they brought. He remembers that some people were able to bring food along with them on carriages but that his family were unable to do that. He remembers a Hindu teacher from his village finding out that his family were in the camp and offering his help by offering money and food. Atiha corroborates his memory by stating that her mother remembers that the family were unable to take much with them apart from a copper cup which has now been passed down to Atiha. Mr Ghafoor remembers staying in the refugee camp for 3 ½ months. [05:56]

Track 3:

Atiha asks Mr Ghafoor what life was like in the Nakoda refugee camp. He recalls that people feared being attacked by Hindus and Sikhs at the camp but that the British man in charge of the camp looked after everyone very well, deciding not to move people until they got military support from Pakistan. He remembers that this man wore shorts with no shirt. It took 3 ½ months before they could start to be moved. [01:35] Mr Ghafoor recalls the journey they made to Pakistan from the refugee camp. It took several days to reach the border, travelling 14-15 miles a day. He recalls that there were about 3000-4000 people making the journey together. He describes his grandfather having family on the Pakistan side of the border who were able to take them by bus to Sahiwal. [03:03] Atiha and Mr. Ghafoor remember that her mother travelled to a different place, Gujranwalla when they reached the Pakistan border. She remembers that her mother’s family were given a haveli with lots of land where rice was grown which they had no experience of harvesting. They discuss Atiha’s grandmother dying during this period. [04:10] Mr Ghafoor remembers staying in Pakistan until 1949 when he moved to Kenya to be with his father. He recalls attending a private college to improve his English. He recalls working in telecommunications between 1950s-1970s. He talks about the changes that happened when Kenya became independent in 1963 and the pressure to come to the UK or return to India/Pakistan. He remained in Kenya. He talks about his decision to leave Kenya with his family in 1975 to come to the UK. He came to Manchester because his in-laws were here and the challenges of securing work. [08:23]

Track 4:

Atiha asks Mr. Ghafoor to remember what happened to his grandfather. He recalls him dying in 1955 at nearly 100 years old after Mr Ghafoor had travelled to Kenya. Atiha and Mr. Ghafoor discuss how hard the journey to Pakistan was for older people and that many were lost. Mr. Ghafoor recalls how families were separated with people settling in different towns. [01:40] Mr. Ghafoor and Atiha discuss how her mother’s family eventually settled in Sahiwal where Mr. Ghafoor’s family were living. She talks about her mother recently telling her that her own mother had died in Gujranwalla while they were working on the land. She thinks she might have caught and died from malaria. [02:30] Atiha asks Mr. Ghafoor to talk about what was most memorable from that time and whether he thinks the Partition was a good thing. He states that it was a good thing for Pakistan. He doesn’t remember losing any friends during the Partition. [03:48]

Track 5:

(Conversation between subjects in Urdu) Mr. Ghafoor and Atiha talk about how the same things happened to Hindus and Sikhs and he asserts that he doesn’t want to take sides. Mr Ghafoor explains that he has visited Pakistan several times to visit family in Sahiwal. [01:15] Mr Ghafoor talks about losing touch with his mother’s family after independence. His mother’s family had only lived 5 miles away from his home before the Partition. [02:06]

Track 6:

Mr. Ghafoor talks more about his mother’s family, two sisters, who went to a different camp and made a different journey. He has never been able to find out what happened to them. He recalls putting an advert in the newspaper but there was no response. He wonders whether their lack of education meant that they were unable to read the paper and were therefore unaware of the advert. [02:10] Atiha asks Mr Ghafoor how he feels about these things now. Mr Ghafoor explains that he has no desire to go back as there are no close relatives there now and he is settled in Manchester. He explains that these memories are very hard but that there is nothing he can do but face the reality of the situation. [03:00 End of the interview]