Unedited audio of the Amarjit Singh Ghura and Rajinder Ghura filmed interview Interview by: Atiha Chaudry

Interview description by: Harriet Morgan-Shami

Track 1:

Rajinder and Amarjit introduce themselves. Amarjit explains that he was born in Sialkot where he and his family lived in a haveli. After the Partition they moved to Jammu. Conversation between Rajinder and Amarjit discussing the haveli, the family’s wealth, land and assets which included a printing press. [01:30] Amarjit talks about growing up in a big house (haveli) with his extended family. He talks about going to school where he learned Urdu which he loved. [02:15] Amarjit talks about living in Jammu with his cousin after the Partition and how they had to travel some distance to bathe and how his father gave him money to purchase roasted channa. [02:48] Amarjit returns to describing his family and attending school before the Partition where there were was one teacher he was afraid of. Rajinder and Amarjit talk about the land around the haveli. [04:32] Amarjit explains that he was only nine years old when the Partition occurred so he did everything his father told him to. Remembers leaving his home holding his father’s hand and feeling very scared. Recalls seeing Muslims killing Sikhs with swords. Explains that his family didn’t pack their belongings because his father thought that they would only be leaving for one night and then returning. The subsequent killing, however, prevented them from returning. [05:53] Amarjit recalls travelling to his cousin’s home by train where he witnessed killing. Rajinder reminds Amarjit that there were already other people sheltering at his cousin’s house. Amarjit does not recall how long the journey took – his main memory is of holding his father’s hand whilst witnessing Muslims using swords to kill Sikhs on the train. Rajinder explains that there was very little food other than rice which is grown in Jammu. [07:37]

Track 2:

Amarjit remembers a little about his time at his cousin’s house but particularly recalls having to travel to the Tawi river to bathe. [01:00] Amarjit and Rajinder discuss who was staying at his cousin’s house and his family ultimately having to leave and travel to Pathankot. [02:08]

Track 3:

Amarjit talks about learning Urdu and Urdu poetry at school and how much he loved it. Rajinder confirms his continuing love of reading Urdu. Amarjit tells how he had to stop learning Urdu after the Partition when he came to live in India. He discusses the new house they were given and how he didn’t like it because it was so much smaller than his first home. [02:57] Interviewer asks what became of the family’s business in India. Amarjit and Rajinder explain that the printing press was the main family business but that all that was lost when they came to India. The couple recall how life became much harder in Pathankot in comparison to the fairly affluent life they had had in Sialkot, especially after his uncle died. Amarjit remembers his cousin taking over the printing press and paying his father a low wage. Recalls how loving his mother was, waiting up late for him to return from the cinema and making him chapatti. Rajinder and Amarjit talk about his father becoming timid and like a servant to the cousin due to the lack of money. [06:15] Interviewer asks how hard it must have been for Amarjit’s father to have lost everything. Amarjit remembers the Partition causing a big change in their circumstances and his father having to start again in the printing trade as a compositor. Discusses his move to the UK and his career as a television engineer despite having wanted to learn about music. [08:44]

Track 4:

General discussion between filmmakers, interviewer and interviewees about the temperature in the room. [00:40] Rajinder asks Amarjit about his schooling – he was in a private school in Sialkot and then a government school in Pathankot. Rajinder mentions the family moving to Delhi after living in Pathankot and asks about his older brother who was adopted by an aunt. Further discussion about school and trying to remember his age/grade in different schools. Amarjit remembers a close friend he made in Pathankot who is still in touch with. Amarjit recalls winning a high school scholarship which meant his father did not have to pay his school fees. However, his father could not afford for him to continue his studies to become an electrical engineer. [04:50] Amarjit remembers his family coming to Delhi but that his father could not settle. They moved to be with his father’s sister with whom the family was very close. Amarjit does remember life improving very much in Delhi. Interviewer asks why familial relationships changed. Amarjit says his cousin treated his father like an employee. Some reflection on whether the Partition changed people’s behaviour. [08:02] Interviewer asks if life improved for his parents after the Partition. Amarjit reflects on the huge change but remembers how much his parents loved each other. Amarjit says how scared he remains when recalling the Partition. [09:50]

Track 5:

General discussion between filmmakers, interviewer and interviewees about how the filming has gone so far. [01:26] Rajinder explains how she and Amarjit met and were married, and how their relationship has evolved. [02:03] Interviewer asks if Amarjit has ever returned to Sialkot since the Partition. Rajinder explains that her nephew has been to the haveli and that the family name is still on the door. [03:12] Rajinder recalls her father in law’s concerns about his son moving to the UK and goes on to talk about how Amarjit sent money back to his parents in India, and how the rest of his siblings helped to take of his parents. She worries that they should have sent more money but explains how she and Amarjit were starting from scratch in the UK. [04:42] Interviewer has conversation with Amarjit and Rajinder about the violence perpetrated by all sides. Rajinder agrees and reflects on why the violence happened in the first place asking why it was stirred up? She also talks about different communities protecting each other concluding that there are good and bad people everywhere. Rajinder makes a distinction between India and Pakistan in their approach to letting different groups stay i.e. India welcomed Muslims to stay but Pakistan did not offer the same welcome to Hindus and Sikhs. She wonders if she and Amarjit will ever go back to the haveli. [07:06] Rajinder recalls that Amarjit caught rheumatic fever as a young child and that this has affected his health in adulthood. She remembers him having a major heart operation when their first child was a baby. She recalls her parents setting her and Amarjit up in business and not asking for any repayment of funds until the couple had saved enough money. Rajinder talks about she and Amarjit helping to pay for Amarjit’s siblings’ weddings thanks to them being given the business to run. [08:51] Interviewer, Amarjit and Rajinder discuss whether he still has objects from that time. He explains that because the family thought they would return they didn’t take anything with them. Some discussion around passports and Britain’s decision to create two Pakistan's so far away from each other. [10:38] General discussion about filming process and what’s for lunch! [12:29 End of interview]